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Apostles of Intersectionality Challenge Europe Episode
23 October 2020
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, intersectionality, disabilities, race, europe, discrimination, france, germany, katrin, eu, racism, identity politics, called, french, intersectional, european, inequalities, roma, question, european commission
James Kanter 00:51
Intersectionality. It’s a mouthful of a word. It’s a way of saying that overlapping identities, for example disability, gender, race, sexual orientation, create forms of discrimination that too often go on addressed. Activists have redesigned their campaigns around intersectionality. Woke PR departments pepper corporate communications with the concept. The vice presidential candidacy of Kamala Harris, a woman of color, who for many represents a triumph over the double bind of sexism and racism, has led some to describe the upcoming US election as an intersectional event. But the EU’s leadership appears to fear the kind of identity politics that intersectionality implies. No US-style culture wars in Europe, they say. And that stance may even be hardening, led by France. President Emmanuel Macron has stepped up a campaign against so called Islamist separatists he says threaten the republican identity of French citizens. The concept of intersectionality unfolds on many levels. Misunderstandings abound, but there’s one unimpeachable source, the US academic Kimberlé Crenshaw, who coined the term in the 1980s.
Kimberlé Crenshaw 02:06
Many years ago, I began to use the term intersectionality to deal with the fact that many of our social justice problems like racism and sexism are often overlapping, creating multiple levels of social injustice.
James Kanter 02:25
Our first guest is somebody who knows Crenshaw well. Emilia Roig. Emilia is the founder and executive director of the Center for Intersectional Justice in Berlin. Her organization’s advocacy includes a report published last month for the European Network Against Racism. That report, titled Intersectional Discrimination in Europe, calls out trends in France and Germany, and it gives EU policymakers 11 concrete recommendations for enhancing racial justice and equality. Emilia, you’re close to the thinking of US lawyer and scholar Kimberlé Crenshaw, who developed the intersectionality concept and is president of your organization. But you’re also based in Europe.
Emilia Roig 03:12
Kimberlé Crenshaw is not only the president of CIJ, but she’s also my mentor. So I’ve learned a lot from her. She’s been a tremendous inspiration for me. And also has helped me frame those issues in a European context, because of course, and this is not to be denied, the European context is very different from the US context. But we can see the same inequality patterns. We see the same police violence, we can see the same discrimination on the labor market that occur both in Europe and in North America.
James Kanter 03:42
Europe’s twin powers, France and Germany seem to think for legal and historical reasons that they don’t even have to discuss color and race. Why do they prefer to be mute on these issues?
Emilia Roig 03:55
First of all, I think both countries have specific reasons why they are oblivious of race. In the French case, it is due to French republicanism and an illusion of a system where race has never mattered. And this has to do with liberty, equality, fraternity, meaning you know, the nation is composed of people who are not divisible by race, by gender, by class. In the German context, we have a situation where race used to matter, and race was the reason why the Holocaust and the Porajmos, the Porajmos is the name for the Romani and Sinti Holocaust, which rarely is named. And after the Holocaust, after the end of the Second World War, we entered an illusory post racial era, meaning that all of a sudden it was as if race stopped to exist and stopped to create effects for people who are not seen as white.
James Kanter 04:53
How do these French and German traditions hinder or make more complicated the application of intersectionality as a concept in Europe versus the United States.
Emilia Roig 05:05
I wouldn’t say that the US is better at speaking about intersectionality. But at least I would say that race as a category has not been attacked so much as it has in the European context. Race evasiveness and post racialism in Europe are preventing social justice movements that are trying to recenter race to the debate from operating effectively simply because race is thought to be a category that has no space in the European context.
James Kanter 05:35
And that manifests itself concretely in terms of data collection. In countries like France and those with this tradition, you cannot collect data on race.
Emilia Roig 05:47
Yeah, exactly. And, of course, in the European context, because of the genocidal past, there is a strong reluctance to using data that classify people according to their religions, according to their sexual orientation, their race, etc. It would be entirely different the way so-called equality data would be collected today. First of all, they would be anonymous. Second of all, people would self identify. So it would, it would be impossible to trace back the, you know, ethnicity or race or religion of a person to their names, it wouldn’t be on the personal identification papers, it wouldn’t be traceable. The only thing that it would provide would be a statistical picture. So we have equality data when it comes to men and women. And that’s why it’s easy to say, we have a gender pay gap that is too wide, that needs to be filled, right? But we don’t have such data to analyze and uncover discrimination, regarding people of color and black people in Europe.
James Kanter 06:49
It just seems that the EU, you could argue that it’s streets ahead of the United States, to some degree on gender and LGBT, but it’s missing the race component.
Emilia Roig 07:00
It is definitely missing the race component. So it feels like there is some level of progressiveness when it comes to those topics: same sex marriage, gender equality, and having really developed strategies on how to combat gender inequality and making sure that every company and every public sector institution is mainstreaming gender equality in their policies. But when it comes to race it’s absolutely absent. It means that the only policies that the EU is putting in place for racial and ethnic minorities are integration policies, which in and of themselves are very problematic and also tainted by colonial undertones and are not going to help when it comes to the fight against racism.
James Kanter 07:40
Now, I wanted to ask you a question about the European Commission. There was a meeting of the commissioners on June the 24th, when they discussed racism. The minutes of the meeting show that one or more of the commissioners made, quote, a call not to fall into the trap of forgetting the success of the European model, and invoked, quote, the vital importance of not importing the terms of the US debate into Europe. And the minutes of this meeting also said that there had been, quote, a reminder of the fundamental differences between the problems of racism on the two continents and a warning that, quote, ignoring these differences would sow the seeds of a cultural war that would be disastrous. So what do you think the terms are that are so explosive for them?
Emilia Roig 08:25
I definitely think that Black Lives Matter, and that naming whiteness, is really what they were referring to, I think — naming those identity differences from a racial perspective. You know, I feel like trying to silence racial justice movements in Europe, is a tactic and a strategy that no longer works, because we have seen after the murder of George Floyd that it was like if there was a collective consciousness taking place. Even in the mainstream, it has become advised as well to speak about racism and to no longer deny it: there is racism in Europe, and that, of course, the two continents are different but the systems the underlying oppression systems are the same. They are a global systems and racism and European colonialism produced the same effects on both sides of the Atlantic.
James Kanter 09:15
Now, in terms of France, I don’t think we can just jump over France without quickly discussing French President Emmanuel Macron’s recent announcement about a republican reconquest, this idea that he wants to get rid of separatism when it concerns the Muslim population there. How do you as an advocate for intersectional justice, see Macron’s announcement?
Emilia Roig 09:40
I would say that Macron’s wish to republicanize France, I see it as very symptomatic of hypocritical discourse. France was never an egalitarian country where race never mattered. And I think that the disenfranchised people, racial and ethnic minorities in France, would take it very differently if at least their discrimination and the inequalities that they’ve been subjected to so far would be recognized. But this is a discourse and this is an illusion that has led many anti-racist groups to not be able to work towards racial justice in the French system.
James Kanter 10:20
That kind of work has become even more of a challenge since the beheading of Samuel Paty. The school teacher had displayed caricatures of the Prophet Mohammed during a lesson on free expression. The brutality of the murder shocked France and the government has since stepped up a crackdown on threats to republicanism and secularism. Among organizations that could be banned is the Collective Against Islamophobia in France, which is a member of the European Network Against Racism that’s worked with Emilia on intersectionality. The French interior minister called the Collective an enemy of the state, and he suggested it was involved in events linked to the killing of Mr. Paty. The Collective has acknowledged being contacted by the father of one of Mr. Paty’s pupils. But it said it still had been verifying the information the father provided at the time of the killing. The Collective said that a claim that it had harassed Mr. Paty was slander. It also expressed its horror over the teacher’s killing. The European Network Against Racism voiced its concern about pressures at the highest levels of the French government, and about the intimidation of one of its membersI mean, my sense here from speaking to French colleagues, French friends, is that they’re broadly supportive of Macron on the basis that without some form of republican reconquest, there will be sort of two separate Frances.
Emilia Roig 11:46
I understand that. And I think what needs to be done is to recognize in the first place that there hasn’t been unity so far. And it’s not about recovering unity, but it’s about creating unity. And that’s two very different things. There needs to be the recognition as well that France is changing. And that France is a multi ethnic, multiracial, multi religious country that can accommodate for those differences. The differences are not problematic. It is the way that differences are embedded in hierarchies, which is problematic.
James Kanter 12:18
Now, there’s another odd obstacle, at least it seemed that way when I came across it, that sort of stands in the way of intersectionality as an accepted concept in Europe, and that is the skepticism among some socialists. Well, on the left and the hard left. They seem to say that the concept distracts from the root causes of inequalities, undermines solidarity, is a form of identity politics and so helps indirectly validate white supremacist identity politics. What is your response to that?
Emilia Roig 12:52
So I would first say that identity politics is negatively connoted right now. So it’s a it’s a term that is no longer, you know, a neutral term to describe social justice movements and discourses that are centered around identities, you know, for example, feminism and the MeToo movement is identity politics, the Black Lives Matter movement is identity politics. So this is where we need to ask the question, you know, why is it considered to be divisive? And would it be considered to be divisive for all types of identities? And the response is no. So that’s why the hard left for the left, but also, to a large extent, liberals, and you know, the middle, I would say, is also quite skeptical to intersectionality because identity politics is considered to be a threat and it is interpreted as a threat.
James Kanter 13:41
Do you think that there’s this traditional way of thinking about the way minorities organize, but intersectionality sort of overrides that? It’s the idea that everyone’s oppression is everybody else’s oppression and therefore, the idea that there are these interest groups that have these predictable positions — that starts to break down. Does that threaten do you think the old political order?
Emilia Roig 14:06
Yes, it definitely does threaten the old order. And I think you’ve put it very nicely. There are these power relations and these power dynamics also being reenacted. If you know the traditional communist Marxist discourses incorporate race, then they have the feeling that it weakens their arguments, which it doesn’t. It’s simply about fighting discrimination within discrimination. Empowering minorities within minorities and tackling inequalities within inequalities. These analyses can help us very much understand class relationships.
James Kanter 14:45
You’ve laid out 11 advocacy goals and policy recommendations to bring an intersectional perspective forward in anti discrimination efforts in Europe and we’ll put a link in the episode notes so that people can see the goals and read the complete report which was commissioned by the European Network Against Racism in Brussels. Your very first priority — I’m not going to go through all of them — is that all EU member states collect equality data on race. Now, why are proxies like religion, migration background, nationality, residency status, generally such weak indicators.
Emilia Roig 15:23
So I would say, first of all, that they are better than nothing. You know, it’s better to have those proxies than to have nothing at all. But the proxies that we currently have do not say much about the racism that is experienced by the individuals. So if we look at Germany, there is a proxy that is being used, which is Migrationshintergrund. So it means with a migration background, but this proxy is not sufficient in order to uncover racism. Because in this category you have, for example, white French people would enter the category with a migration background. White Polish people would enter the category with a migration background. On the other hand, black people from parents who did not migrate to Germany, but were in Germany before, would not be captured by this statistic, which means that they would fall through the cracks of a statistic that is meant as well to uncover racism and also in, in other cases, to implement quotas, for example, you know, corrective measures of inequalities. And so that’s a big problem. And in the French context, there is not even such proxies that can be used. I mean, there are geographical proxies, there are addresses where they are located, where they live, which, of course can be corroborated with their ethnic background and their race, because the vast majority of people living in the so called banlieues, so the outskirts of major French cities are mostly racial and ethnic minorities, But it’s not enough.
James Kanter 16:47
What you would like to see happen is the collection of so called disaggregated data.
Emilia Roig 16:53
And so disaggregation means separating, you know, within a category. Within the category woman, disaggregation would mean having data on disabled women, having data on working class women, ethnic minority and racial minority women, and on religious minority women. These are all doable. You know, a lot of the criticism that is heard is, oh, it’s too complicated. We’re in 2020. There are so many data with very complicated formulas that are being collected every day. I mean, that’s the age of AI and algorithms. So you know, we can definitely collect disaggregated data.
James Kanter 17:31
The second priority in your report, is that the legal category of race be recognized as an overarching category in all member states. Would you like the EU itself to mandate the use of race as a legal category?
Emilia Roig 17:50
Yes and it’s already happening. You know, there is a European race directive. There are legal documents using race. The thing is that we see that it’s currently being dismantled by individual member states. You know, it already happened in France in 2018. France, erased the word race from its constitution and replaced it by sex. So it means that all of a sudden race is no longer playing a role. We have really materialized and manifested the post racial era in the French context, saying that this term belongs to the past. That’s the same in Germany where race is not being completely erased but replaced by racist denomination, which is, you know, a contortion, it’s a rhetorical contortion to basically say a word that, you know, we should be able to say, because, yes, it is creating discomfort, but racism as a system is not comfortable. So really it should happen. It should remain. I think that the EU should stay strong on this, and really, clearly prevent member states, or at least really signaling that this category in all different member states are necessary in order for international agreements, international conventions to be respected.
James Kanter 19:03
Now, another priority is to get the European Commission to take member states like France to court if necessary, for systemic discrimination against Muslim women. And here, we’re talking about the quote neutrality unquote laws such as headscarf bans in schools and higher education, and how that affects a particular group of people, in particular, young Muslim women.
Emilia Roig 19:25
So first of all, the case of Muslim women wearing the hijab in Europe is really emblematic for intersectional discrimination because it’s really clear that Muslim women wearing the headscarf are not protected solely on the grounds of ethnic origin or religion. Because a woman not wearing the headscarf or a man, a Muslim man, not wearing the headscarf would not be facing the same type of discrimination. Similarly, they are not protected solely by laws against discrimination on the grounds of gender. Because another woman not wearing the headscarf would not be discriminated against. So it means that really they are at the intersection of two intricately interwoven identity traits and discriminations. So if the European Commission would use those cases and bring France to court, this would be an example of an intersectional approach to justice and to anti discrimination because they would use both directives on the ground of gender and on the grounds of race in order to unveil, yeah, this kind of discrimination. I think it would send a signal as well to other member states. You know, the laïcité in France and the ban of the headscarf, it’s no longer just a French phenomenon. It’s taking place in Germany, it’s taking place in Belgium, in the Netherlands as well. In the UK, there has been as well discussion and, you know, is regularly put in question.
James Kanter 22:00
A fourth priority is your recommendation to take an intersectional approach to better protect Roma populations. And I wonder if you could tell me how taking an intersectional approach might sort of finally amount to a breakthrough in addressing the problems that Europe’s largest minority group have long faced.
Emilia Roig 22:22
Currently, the policies addressing Roma people at EU level and in individual member states focus almost entirely on the social aspect. So there are social policies meant to integrate Roma, on the labor market, in the school system, you know, they need to be educated, their lifestyle needs to be changed, there needs to be awareness raising in those communities. And instead of looking at the race components, and the fact that Roma and Sinti population have been persecuted in Europe for many centuries, and that they did not receive any reparations, financial or in kind, after the Holocaust. And it took until 1982 for Germany to recognize the genocide against the Roma and Sinti. So there are so many reasons, historical reasons, political reasons, that explain the economic situation of Roma and Sinti people that go beyond, you know, the social explanation.
James Kanter 23:19
What does taking that intersectional lens imply?
Emilia Roig 23:23
There are, for example, very outdated, anti poverty laws against begging on the street that are very clearly targeted at Roma and Sinti people. So, you know, it means that ensuring that Roma and Sinti people have access to housing is a priority number one, instead of, you know, having programs that make them work in really bad working conditions and not really taking into account the reasons why in the first place, they are in this situation, and have absolutely no housing. A lot of Roma children are being put in schools for children with special needs. So for children with disabilities, which is very problematic, because first of all, it’s a mismatch of resources because children with disabilities need the teaching that is adapted to their needs. And then putting children without disabilities, who are mostly from Roma communities in these schools is also a mismatch. There are so many layers to that that are problematic, I don’t even know where to start. And so this is how it can be changed, you know, like putting the burden on the states to understand that the situation for the Roma and Sinti people in Europe is largely due to historical reasons that are based on race and racism.
James Kanter 24:37
Our second guest is Katrin Langensiepen. She’s a green Member of the European Parliament from Germany. She was elected to her first term last year, and she’s a prominent member of the Committee on Employment and Social Affairs and active on foreign policy. Katrin also brings her experience of living with a rare condition called TAR Syndrome. She lacks the radius bone in each for forearms, and she’s the first woman elected to the European Parliament with a visible disability. Katrin sees the current wave of identity politics movements as part of the dramatic advances for civil rights made since the 1960s. She also sees this as a moment for disabled people to join forces with other groups in tearing down remaining systems of discrimination.
Katrin Langensiepen 25:26
In the 60s, Martin Luther King, black people went on the streets. Then we had a woman movement, like in the 70s, and the cripple movement. People forgot about that! We had the cripple movement, a huge, important movement. We have the Black Lives Matters movement, we can jump on the train as well. Let’s demonstrate together. And if you attack my black friend, my Jewish friend, you attacked me, and that’s my way of making politics.
James Kanter 26:00
Looking across the Atlantic, Katrin sees advances for disabled people that she’d like to see in Germany too.
Katrin Langensiepen 26:06
In the United States they’re one step further, it’s more usual. And if I see how many comedians or persons with disabilities are in the media in the United States, and how normal it is. So actors like Game of Thrones partners, sexual life, all that doesn’t exist in the movies or media here in Germany. You have still the situation, for example, in the restaurant or in a cafe, that the owner comes to the parents and say, oh, could you go out with your son? You are disturbing my guests. That’s still daily life in Germany.
James Kanter 26:52
Katrin says some EU leaders in Brussels still are moving too slowly toward taking all members of society into account. That includes European Commission President and fellow German Ursula von der Leyen.
Katrin Langensiepen 27:04
Ursula, Ursula von der Leyen, has the equality glass from a woman and man perspective. What about woman plus, Romani woman, black woman? And I see a kind of cooperation starts in the strategies or different strategies by using the word inclusion. The Roma strategy was the first time in that strategy they were talking about inclusion. That opened the doors for me to take it and to put it into my report. So that’s about intersectionality and cooperation.
James Kanter 27:44
Katrin says resistance to taking an intersectional approach to addressing discrimination can be found across the political spectrum.
Katrin Langensiepen 27:52
I don’t think that’s a question of being a lefty or right-wing. To me if we are talking about participation and intersectionality it’s a question of a special group is afraid of losing power that in the past, left and right, the mainstream was: we are doing something for you. People with disabilities are often telling me that they got told you have to be thankful: the society offers you a special space, but they, the non disabled society, decide on you, what you are allowed to do. The demand of the disability movement is nothing about us without us.
James Kanter 28:48
From an early age Katrin resisted being pigeonholed. She worked abroad. Overcame a spell of unemployment. And eventually won election onto the council in the German city of Hannover.
Katrin Langensiepen 28:58
When I was young, people told me you will never do this or that. You will never be able to do this or that. And I decided if you have no options or possibilities for me, I’m totally free and I can do what I want. I had my A-Level exam, I lived in Israel and China. I studied in Holland, I worked in France. The financial crisis 2007, eight and nine, came to us young people, highly educated. There was no option to get a job. And so I decided to jump into the politics bubble. I was a candidate in the local council in 2011 for the Greens here in Hanover and I was as an unemployed person, woman with a visible disability, came overnight into that council. Fukushima played a role, and the quota played a role as a woman. And that was my start.
James Kanter 30:03
Eventually, Katrin was selected by the greens to run to become a German member of the European Parliament. And she won a seat last year. The parliament was mostly prepared for her arrival.
Katrin Langensiepen 30:15
The European Parliament called me when I was on the train, and was like, yeah, hello, administration, how can we help you? So they were really helpful. But when it came to the committee, and I realized, okay, I can’t use the voting machine, whoops. I have a problem. And in Strasbourg I had the problem with a chair. I couldn’t use and move the heavy chair. It takes a while. It takes some days. I need the help by Twitter and other people to raise that issue and that problem. But at least it went quite fast.
James Kanter 30:55
Her first meeting of the full European Parliament left her with a strong sense that more people with disabilities should get the chance to enter European politics.
Katrin Langensiepen 31:04
When I was in Strasbourg for the first plenary, last year, I was looking around and was searching for other people, other allies and partners. And I realized, okay, there’s no one, I’m the only woman. There are less people than in the time before in the Juncker Commission. Maybe there are other MEPs with disabilities, nonvisible. But parties should put people with different backgrounds, people with disabilities on the list. And that’s still a fight.
James Kanter 31:42
Katrin has natural candor, and she’s open about how much you’d like to be seen as the multifaceted politician she’s become over the years.
Katrin Langensiepen 31:50
I want to be seen as a social politician and of course, as a woman with disability. But I have different interests. I’m not only that. But if I’m talking about disability on Twitter, I get 5,000 likes. If I’m talking about Middle East, I get two. And I say okay, well, I’m not only this, I would like to be seen as a professional, neutral, MEP and politician. And maybe here and there, it’s moment to bring my experience from the past into that question. But I’m not the quota clown.
James Kanter 32:33
It’s now been a decade since the European Commission proposed the anti discrimination directive. The idea was to extend protection across Europe to people facing forms of discrimination beyond sex and ethnic origin. So for example, disability and age — and then to extend that protection into areas of everyday life beyond employment, such as into social protection, education and housing. But the directive has repeatedly stalled due to opposition by governments in the European Council. Katrin says resistance to the directive still remains widespread among national officials and civil servants, including in Germany.
Katrin Langensiepen 33:10
We MEPs, we did our job. The Council is the bad guy. Now I’m talking to people in the German Bundestag, people who are working in administration, and they are afraid to adopt it because if they adopted, it has a result that we can go to the court. That we can start an infringement. Yeah, losing power. That’s politics.
James Kanter 33:41
One of Katrin’s main goals is promoting a strong post 2020 EU disability strategy that takes an intersectional approach and pushes for better inclusion of persons with disabilities in the European labor market. An iconic issue for her is to end the system of sheltered workshops in Europe. These workshops have long provided vocational activity for people with disability. But they’re increasingly regarded around the world as exploitative, abusive and discriminatory.
Katrin Langensiepen 34:10
There is a special group in Germany, we are talking about 300,000 people working in the sheltered workshops for one euro average per hour. It’s an old holy institution. In Germany, parents with a disabled child, were looking for a solution. What happened to my child if I am dead. That was the question at the end the 50s, beginning of the 60s, last century. We had for the first time the situation, in the past, they didn’t survive, or they were killed. Third Reich.
James Kanter 34:53
Katrin is referring to the so called T4 extermination program authorized by Adolf Hitler. By the end of the Second World War, an estimated 300,000 people with disabilities have been killed in Germany and Austria and other European countries. The introduction of sheltered workshops marked a clear break with this barbaric and murderous legacy. But Katrin says the workshops remain an exclusionary institution.
Katrin Langensiepen 35:19
That was one step. We don’t want to cover or hide our children anymore. We want to bring them out of the house, that they have something to do. Special amount of money. It was not a question of having labor rights, it was a question of being safe somewhere out of the city, not that visible, because you don’t want to disturb the society or shock the society. The situation today is we have huge institutions. It’s a business. I bring you from here to there. You work there doing stupid things. Companies can do something good. And you don’t have to spend that much money. We are talking about companies like VW, Mercedes, Continental producing in sheltered workshops. They don’t hire that person. They have no minimum wage. Well, they don’t need that. So you have to be thankful. We are not talking about independent living, having a family, paying your rent, living in a barrier-free apartment. We get criticized for that from the UN.
James Kanter 36:38
That’s a reference to the UNCRPD, the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. It’s a UN Human Rights treaty the EU ratified in 2010.
Katrin Langensiepen 36:50
And the UNCRPD, say, crystal clear, in Germany or other countries in the European Union, please find a solution. And the institution is not really willing to give that safety system up.
James Kanter 37:12
Katrin also wants to ensure that other people with disability don’t suffer the same demeaning treatment that she faced just as she was making her way in the world. She says getting there will require European policymakers to put the wishes of disabled people first ahead of their own institutional and political agendas.
Katrin Langensiepen 37:32
I tried to open the door to discuss and to ask the people who are working there: how do you feel and what do you want? And they say, I want to have a minimum wage. I’m working and producing. Of course I want to be employee like you and me and the others. I’m sad to hear if a 16 year old girl with disabilities tells me, yeah, after I get graduated, I am going into the institutions and will work in a sheltered workshop. That’s automatic. So why? Who told you that? And she or he has no opportunities. They wanted to put me into that. And I decided I don’t want to work in an institution for several reasons. And they blamed me I would never find a job. It’s a question of fear and they push you and blame you, shouting at you, because they are losing power. And we should stop thinking of how can we protect people with disabilities. I’m not like an animal. We are human beings and we are talking about human rights. That’s all what I want. And that’s a new way of thinking.
James Kanter 39:09
That’s it for this episode. EU Scream’s nonprofit journalism is supported by listener donations, partnerships and advertising. And we’re grateful to the Laura Kinsella Foundation for an annual grant. For more details and for more episodes of EU Scream visit our website at you euscream.com Thanks for listening.
